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woolybear Langen Hessen
Posts: 43
Website

Hello all,
about weeks a member sell on ebay Germany many pattern from various artists like Monica Spicer, Karen Alderson, Kympatti, Heather Lyell, Lisa Pay, Marlene De Lorenzo, Pam Holton, Jennifer Laing and so on.
The pattern are all COPIES!!
I have written that to Monica Spicer and Kympatti and they write to the member and ebay Germany but he sell every week more, some patterns he sell more than one time.
I can´t do anything but maybe somebody here in this forum read this and can stop this person.

Here are the links

http://feedback.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dl … =56&page=1

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie … 0808424099

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie … 0817571555

karenaus Melbourne
Posts: 694
Website

Thank you for bringing that to my attention Woolybear!  :hug: Indeed that pattern I saw they sold of mine was never sold as a paper pattern.. I'll be writing to them.
    It's always hard to know if people are selling copies or not, but this pattern was definitely.

boohbears Booh Bears
Glendale, Arizona
Posts: 1,833
Website

I remember this happened a few years ago, too.  Karen, you told me about it, they were doing it with my patterns  ;O(   
Thank you for bringing attention to it  Woolybear!
Hugs,
Janice

Gabriele~GJOYfulBears GJOYful Bears
Posts: 511
Website

That is the reason I am scared to sell my patterns for people to use. So many people want to try my patterns but I'm honestly a bit terrified of the people who will use them for the wrong reasons.

Sorry to hear that and hope everything gets sorted out.

karenaus Melbourne
Posts: 694
Website

Hi Gabriele, The vast majority of people are honest and don't do this sort of thing... It's something you have to factor in but it's generally not a problem I don't think.
    Its a good sideline along with the bears, the few occasions it happens don't worry me enough to to stop selling patterns.
    And yes Janice, I remember that, I was a bit scared to email you because I admired your bears so much.. Which makes no sense at all lol... Again that time, someone was nice enough to let me know, It's nice that people look out for each other!

   I see they are also selling a pattern from a magazine, Teddybear and Friends... Of course theres nothing wrong with it if it's the actual pages from the magazine, but I Wouldn't mind betting it's a photocopy....

rkr4cds Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)
suburban Chicago
Posts: 2,044

There are definitely steps to take -
First, one must join the VeRO® program, eBay's® program to claim lawful Intellectual Property rights, in order to claim correct Copyright ownership to a pattern.
Then the file must be submitted while the sale is Active... and it will take eBay® between 2 - 4 days to act, depending on when they receive your faxed notice and the ending time of the sale.

And finally  -  IF they receive ENOUGH complaints - they MAY put this person OUT OF BUSINESS.
But only if the IP owners act! It's Your property: don't let someone steal it, because if one person gets away with it that act allows others to walk right though that open gate.

The same goes for every uncontested Picassa Album with stolen/posted patterns and other similar sites. It doesn't end and it IS a risk one takes when putting out patterns/information. but it's still miniscule compared to the number of people who are helped by learning through patterns!

Learn from one who has been there, please.

karenaus Melbourne
Posts: 694
Website
rkr4cds wrote:

There are definitely steps to take -
First, one must join the VeRO® program, eBay's® program to claim lawful Intellectual Property rights, in order to claim correct Copyright ownership to a pattern.
Then the file must be submitted while the sale is Active... and it will take eBay® between 2 - 4 days to act, depending on when they receive your faxed notice and the ending time of the sale.

And finally  -  IF they receive ENOUGH complaints - they MAY put this person OUT OF BUSINESS.
But only if the IP owners act. It's Your property : don't let someone steal it, because if one person gets away with it that axt allows others to walk right though that open gate.

The same goes for every uncontested Picassa Album with stolen/posted patterns and other similar sites. It doesn't end and it IS a risk one takes when putting out patterns/information. but it's still miniscule compared to the number of people who are helped by learning through patterns!

Learn from one who has been there, please.

Yes Bobbi, I've acted before when this has happened, I don't believe in letting people get away with it, because then it just becomes the thin edge of the wedge.... This person doesn't have anything active of mine but I'll still let them know I'm keeping an eye on them...

rkr4cds Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)
suburban Chicago
Posts: 2,044

because then it just becomes the thin edge of the wedge....

I love that line! May I use it myself?

karenaus Melbourne
Posts: 694
Website
rkr4cds wrote:

because then it just becomes the thin edge of the wedge....

I love that line! May I use it myself?

Hehe you may indeed Bobbi... PS, I love that you didn't back down and let them get away with it in your case/s... So often people think they can pull one over on others, specially people in our situations- designers/artists etc, because we think we can't afford to fight or whatever, when in most cases, we just need to stand up for ourselves and each other..

Jennskains Posts: 2,203

It is wrong of people to sell a pattern they say is theirs when it isn't.  I am looking for a mini bear pattern that I can use.( I would be willing to credit the artist) I am just trying to learn my way and I found some beautiful sythitic fur.  Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to get a big bear out of it.

woolybear Langen Hessen
Posts: 43
Website

Hello,
to campaign for ending selling copies is the right way I agree to respect the work about artists they sell there pattern. It is many work to create a pattern. What this person do is criminal, last year he sell with an other account by ebay copies of pattern too, ebay block his account and he must pay penalty. I hope they stop him soon.
Sorry for my terrible english  :redface:

Gabriele~GJOYfulBears GJOYful Bears
Posts: 511
Website

I never sell a bear made using another artist's pattern ~ I don't want anyone to copy mine so why should I copy any other's? Plus that is quite boring in my opinion and takes the fun out of designing and creating. When you create something truly unique you know it didn't exist in this world before you thought of it ~ so that's inspiring and the end result is a result of hard work and .... fun! Who would want to take that away by copying? It's just silly.

I do make other artist's patterns but strictly for my own collection. That I believe is fine ~ and everyone should have access to a pattern to make themselves a bear, but not to sell it as their own.

wubbiebear Braille Teddies
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Posts: 664

Well,  I don't see anything wrong with selling a bear made from another artist's pattern because the bear will still be your own even when you use someone else's pattern, but I would always find out from the artist whether it would be okay and I would definitely give the artist credit because that's just common courtesy.

Gabriele~GJOYfulBears GJOYful Bears
Posts: 511
Website

Well said  bear_original  And I realise what I said sounded far more harsh than I meant it. It is of course my own personal opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone. Wubbiebear I agree that once you have made it it is still your bear ~ because I have never been able to create another's pattern and have it look exactly like the original by the artist. Everyone is different and so are our bears.
Basically what I meant was I think it is wrong to sell a bear that looks almost identical to another artist's having used their pattern and even down to dressing the bear the same, and still call it your own. That is what I meant. I hope most people are more creative than to do that and still claim it was their idea. There are so many ideas out there just waiting to become a bear.....

wubbiebear Braille Teddies
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Posts: 664

That's true.  For me, I look at doing other people's patterns like I look at playing the piano.  I write songs, but I don't only play my songs.  It's like recording a cover.  You have to play it your own way because if you try to copy the score exactly it sounds blah, but if you add your own style to it it sounds really cool.  I think it's the same way with making bears.  I hope my bears have their own style anyway.

rowarrior The Littlest Thistle
Glasgow
Posts: 6,212

Um, actually, making and selling a bear from someone else's pattern is breaching their copyright unless you've been specifically granted permission to do so.  You will usually find on a pattern that it is specifically stated that it is not for commercial re-use, ie selling, so you're breakign the law if you're doing so.

wubbiebear Braille Teddies
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Posts: 664

I'm aware of that, but I was just referring to making the bears, not selling them.  I wouldn't sell a bear from another artist's pattern without their permission.

Gabriele~GJOYfulBears GJOYful Bears
Posts: 511
Website

I've only ever made one bear using another artist's pattern and I would NEVER sell him ~ he was my first bear and I'm too attached (even though he's a bit ugly - but he's so ugly he's cute so I don't mind). So it is not something I have to worry about as I never make other's patterns in the first place. Every time I go to, I look at the pattern and see all the things I'd do to change it so I just end up creating my own instead lol.

rkr4cds Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)
suburban Chicago
Posts: 2,044

Katy, I don't know if Scotland has the same rules; there are no true 'International' copyright laws, only two principal intn'l © 'conventions: the Berne Convention for Protection of Literary & Artistic Works (Berne Convention) and the Universal Copyright Convention (UCC).
The USA became a Berne member on 1 March 89 and a UCC member on 16 Sept 55.

Here's the link to read more on these two:
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl100.html

And the url for the US Copyright Office:
http://www.copyright.gov/
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-w … foreigners

Whether or not the pattern designer actually writes out the Copyright statement on the pattern cover, Copyright exists - from the moment that an idea is put into tangible form, a design is committed to paper, a song is sung, a dance is danced... and THE DESIGN remains their property and it's only that individual and/or their estate who can decide how it can be used (whether or not they allow it to be reproduced or licensed for reproduction [reproduced for sale] one or multiples.)


The actual physical pattern itself is another matter. (Doctrine of First Sale)
The US Patent & Trademark Office used to all it the Garage Sale effect; now it's the eBay® effect. The original purchaser is allowed to resell that pattern, whether it be on paper, CD/DVD or whatever, but ONLY under these conditions:
- that they are NOT making copies (reproductions) of it for sale.
- that they sell the original purchase, and
- that they do NOT retain even one copy of it prior selling the original.

Reflecting these guidelines, one may not sell anything made from someone else's design work, be it an apron, a bear or a house, unless one has permission from the designer.
This goes beyond giving print credit, if the designer has requested that no products be made for sale from their work.
That must be honored!
But if they request that the pattern itself not be resold, that's not a legal request and as long as you don't retain a copy of the pattern, stored electronically or on paper or archived in any other way, you can safely sell the pattern: Doctrine of First Sale.

Gabriele~GJOYfulBears GJOYful Bears
Posts: 511
Website

WOW that was really interesting and I'm so glad you really know what you're talking about I just learnt alot that will really help me panic less about people copying my bears. Thanks so much!

woolybear Langen Hessen
Posts: 43
Website

He do it again!! Every week the same...
Now pattern from Trudy Labbe, Pauline Wong, Helen Gleeson, Katrina Ndreijka and Nam Dinnar.
In the description he write that there are copies (sw-Kopien und Farbkopien - immer vollständig)
Maybe someone knows one of the artist and write them, Monica Spicer I have write a mail.
Here you can see that he sell ever the same pattern:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Teddy-Schnittmuster- … 336a8617c0
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie … 0807510277
Dieses Angebot wurde beendet. Der Verkäufer hat diesen oder einen gleichartigen Artikel wiedereingestellt.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Teddy-Schnittmuster- … 336a86255a
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie … 0811761924

http://shop.ebay.de/wwausu/m.html?_trkp … p=10&_sc=1

http://feedback.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dl … =60&page=1

karenaus Melbourne
Posts: 694
Website

Can you believe they're SELLING Sue Ann's FREE Goldie pattern that's available on Teddy Talk? It's outrageous.. And also a pattern in their feedback I recognise as a project from Bear Creations magazine...
     Good to see a couple of recent negatives on their feedback too... I've emailed a couple of artists I know personally whose patterns are listed.
    Now i think of it-I guess that if they have the pattern available on here, they come here....

Fairybear Wagga Wagga
Posts: 341

I was looking at this with interest.  I buy lots of patterns.  I would never re-sell the patterns and I only ever make the bears for myself and would never sell them either.  But I have been guilty of buying patterns from ebay from people (they are original patterns and never copies) but only patterns that I have been unable to get direct from the artist.  I buy heaps of patterns direct from Monica, Bear Essence, Beary Cheap etc etc.  Should I not purchase these patterns from ebayers as I am contributing (unwittingly) to the breach of copyright?     bear_shocked

rkr4cds Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)
suburban Chicago
Posts: 2,044

If you have bought ORIGINAL  (non-copied/printed) patterns you're more than likely OK, though sometimes it's hard to tell an original from a re-print...
I'd say that this is the Doctrine of First Sale (or second or third.)
You're purchasing a pattern from someone who is more than likely gleaning out their stash.
It is on their conscience to have NOT retained a copy of it before selling this original.

It's kinda like they say about about giving a Gift: once it's out of your hands, you can't have a claim over what's done with it.
It's no longer yours.

Just don't make a copy on your computer, for your personal use, or write out the pattern long-hand, and THEN re-sell the designer's original pattern again - that's the illegal part.

boohbears Booh Bears
Glendale, Arizona
Posts: 1,833
Website
karenaus wrote:

And yes Janice, I remember that, I was a bit scared to email you because I admired your bears so much.. Which makes no sense at all lol... Again that time, someone was nice enough to let me know, It's nice that people look out for each other!

Karen,
What's funny is that I was surprised that such a famous artist even knew who I was to tell me someone was stealing my patterns!   I was so happy that you told me - you were the nice person who let me know!  Thanks to Woolybear this time!

I certainly don't mind if the people who buy my patterns sell their finished creations as long as they give me design credit.   In fact, I am honored that they like my designs enough to make them and sell them!    What is upsetting is when dishonest people take a pattern that I designed and they make copies of the pattern and then sell them as if they were the original pattern.   I quit selling my patterns for almost 5 years when this happened to me the first time. 

On the subject of using another artist's design, I've been designing and making bears for so many years that sometimes it's fun to sew using another artist's design but when I do, I give them credit and if I sell the piece, I make sure it is okay with them to do so first.

Hugs,
Janice

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