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Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!! 

In November, my lil yorkshire terrier was savaged by a Staffordshire  :twisted: bull terrier. My yorkie was on her lead in her harness, and was ripped clean out of her harness by this beast. It came from out of nowhere, and was shaking my dog like a ragdoll. To cut a long story short, my dog is ok, but only because my vet managed to put her back together. I reported this to the police, and the outcome was, among  a fine etc, that this Staffordshire  :twisted: bull terrier is to be kept on a short lead and muzzled at all times or it will be destroyed .............. well, this morning I just met the dog with it's owner, and NO muzzle  bear_angry  I'm not pleased.

Natascha LeftyBears by Natascha Sabo
Remchingen
Posts: 314

That is really terrible, I'm so sorry to read how your poor little doggie had to suffer and in your place I would not be pleased, either, to see that dog without muzzle.
Did you report this to the police or any other authority?
Please, do so!
Don't understand me wrong, I'm really an animal lover, but that dog is dangerous, and there have been enough (too many) incidents, when children have been killed by such biests.

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Thanks Natascha. :hug:

Sorry I just needed to rant! Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against any healthy dog being put to sleep, but It's not on that you can't walk your own dog, on it's lead, without fear of it being savaged. I'm really lucky my dog wasn't killed and thats why I reported it to the police. If that dog (the staffy  :twisted: ) is spotted without a muzzle, or if it attacks again, it will be destroyed, simple. I'm annoyed someone could be so irresponsible for their own dog and the wellbeing of other peoples pets, but it's happening the length and breadth of the country, so i really shouldn't be surprised at all!

desertmountainbear desertmountainbear
Bloomsburg, PA
Posts: 5,399

So does that mean yes you called the police when you saw it without the muzzle?  Please I hope this means yes. 
This is a horrible story.  We have a huge problem here with a dog closely related to these ,the pit bull.  I think they may even be banned in some states.
If the owner can not or will not keep other dogs safe, then I am sorry the dog must go. 

Joanne

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

I was driving back from the Common, where I'd just been for a walk with Delilah (my Yorkie terrier) when I passed this guy with the Staffy  :twisted: ,I noticed immediately that the dog was not wearing a muzzle, so did an emergency stop, jumped out of my car and challenged him about it, he was full of excuses, which I told him I wasn't interested in excuses and I don't want to see the dog out without a muzzle again, which he agreed it wouldn't happen again....... I was fuming. When my dog was attacked last November my vet said if it had been the other side of her body, she probably wouldn't have survived as her spleen is on the other side. She had internal stitches and over 20 on the outside of her body. It was a totally unprovoked attack as well which is even worse.  This guy has a 2 year old child as well, it's absolutely crazy. The pit-bull is on the dangerous dogs list in this country Joanne.... I just think some people shouldn't be allowed a dog at all....  bear_wacko

desertmountainbear desertmountainbear
Bloomsburg, PA
Posts: 5,399

Make sure you start carrying a camera.  You will want absolute proof.

Joanne

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

My phone has a pretty good camera and video camera on it which is handy. This whole scenario has caused a lot of tension as we all live in the same neighbourhood, practically neighbours. Neighbours who needs them!!! Not me! Not those ones anyhow!!

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

Whether it is a dog or a person, you have the right to protect yourself from danger.

What would you have done if this was a person attacking instead of a dog?
You probably would have told the person to leave you alone.  If that didn't work you would run away and call the cops.  If that didn't work you would have used whatever reasonable means was at your disposal to protect yourself.  Right?

Well, a dog is no different.  If a dog attacks and you don't have time to warn it (or the dog's owner) and you can't call the cops or run away, the only thing left for you to do is defend yourself.  If there is no other alternative, you have the right to do whatever is reasonably necessary to prevent harm from coming to yourself, your family, your property, your pets and any other law abiding person in your sphere of influence.  IF that means that the offending person or dog comes to harm in the process, it is unfortunate but it is necessary.

I don't ever want to hurt anybody but, if it is necessary, I will exercise my right to self-preservation by whatever means necessary and I won't apologize for it.  It was the OTHER person or animal that put HIMSELF at risk by violating MY RIGHTS and he should know that his intended victim might protect himself and that might mean that the tables might be turned on him.

First, I think that it would be a good idea for you to think about getting some military grade pepper spray and keeping it handy when you go out walking your dog.  (Or anywhere, for that matter.) 

If you are comfortable with other means of self defense like firearms, you might want to consider that option.  Even if you aren't comfortable with firearms, I strongly suggest that you educate yourself about firearms, how they work and how to use them.  (And how NOT to use them.)  You don't have to be a gun expert but knowledge is power.

Back to the dog:

This animal has attacked before.  It is a KNOWN DANGER.  It's owner has been warned.  He has been given specific instructions on what to do in order to prevent other attacks but he has CHOSEN to ignore them.  You can not count on the owner to look out for the safety of others in the neighborhood.  You are going to have to look out for yourself.

First and foremost, get the law involved right away.  Call your magistrate or police department and report that dog's owner.

Second, consider your self defense options, carefully.  You don't want to run afoul of the law but you need to assert your right to self-preservation.  Against dogs, pepper spray is probably the best option but you might need to get a permit to carry it.  Find out what the rules are.

Third, and finally, STAND TALL!  Your dog got hurt once.  You don't have to let it happen again.  You have the right to your own safety and you have the right to do whatever is necessary to keep yourself safe.

I don't like the idea of having that dog put away any more than you do but, if necessary, I will back you up.

Remember this:  Criminals don't get put in jail.  They GET THEMSELVES put in jail.

You are right.  The other guy is wrong.  It is HE who should face the consequences of his actions, not you.

desertmountainbear desertmountainbear
Bloomsburg, PA
Posts: 5,399
Us Bears wrote:

First, I think that it would be a good idea for you to think about getting some military grade pepper spray and keeping it handy when you go out walking your dog.  (Or anywhere, for that matter.)

I never, never walk my dog without pepper spray.  I had to use it once.  We were being attacked by a loose chow.  I sprayed him square in the face and it stopped him on the spot.  I could get away as he tried to make his way home. 

I purchased it on ebay.  Whatever I bought works.  I have just a key chain size.  It is very easy to carry.

Joanne

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

Excellent!   bear_thumb

It's one of those things that we hope we never have to use but, when we have to use it, we're glad we have it.

People need to understand that they are responsible to control their dogs just the same way they are responsible to control their car while they are driving.

When people don't drive safely, we are quick to point it out, make them subject to the law and force them to pay the penalties when necessary but, strangely, many people don't have the same attitude when it comes to keeping a dog.

It is unfortunate that we have to look out for other people who act like such idiots.

HeidiBears florida
Posts: 321

That is just ridiculous!!! I am so sorry to hear what happened to your terrier  bear_cry . Such big dogs are like weapons, they can be so dangerous.... people who own the larger breeds (which are capable of serious damage) should be required to take their dogs to classes and socialize them at a young age and learn how to manage them. That owner has no excuse; he obviously screwed up from the very beginning and doesn't know a thing about owning a dog. He could even be giving off signals that his dog might pick up, if he feels nervous or angry his dog might sense that and make it uneasy which could even lead to its attacks... the dog just doesn't know how to act properly because he never worked with it. His dog deserves a new home where it will be kept safe from other dogs so that it can't cause any more harm (What is with this second chance stuff? After the dog hurts or kills another dog it has no right to be walking the streets when it is likely to attack again!!!)  and that guy should be locked up for being so reckless and irresponsible!!!!!!

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479
HeidiBears wrote:

That owner has no excuse; he obviously screwed up from the very beginning and doesn't know a thing about owning a dog.

DING!  DING!  DING!  Give that Bear a cookie!   bear_thumb  :lol:

I also like the idea of sending that other dog to a new home where it can have a happy life without worry of hurting other dogs or people.   bear_thumb  bear_thumb  bear_thumb

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Thanks for the good advice  bear_flower  I couldn't agree more with everything you've all said ( except maybe me having a gun  bear_tongue  ) No seriously though, I will look into getting the spray, that is a really good idea.  :hug:  Heidi you are bang on, I couldn't agree more  :hug:

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

In 90% of all cases, pepper spray is the best solution for dog attacks.

Just for argument's sake, let's pretend that you found it necessary to shoot a dog that was attacking you.  Unless your first shot was lethal, you're not guaranteed to incapacitate the dog in time to stop it from hurting you.  Even with a bullet in it's belly, the thing could still keep attacking you.  You'd probably have to shoot the dog again.

Firing a gun, at any time, for any reason, creates a certain amount of danger.  The person who fires that gun is responsible for making sure that the bullet goes where it is intended.  When you are being jumped by a big, snarling dog, will you have the presence of mind to fire the gun in such a way that the intended target is incapacitated while preventing injury to bystanders?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  That's something you need to decide before you take on the responsibility of using a gun.

While I do advocate that all law abiding citizens should educate themselves in how to use firearms, I do not advocate that everybody should have one.

Pepper spray is quite effective on most dogs that have not been trained to resist it.  (Yes, military dogs are sometimes dosed with the stuff so that an enemy can't use to prevent dogs from being used against them.)  Pepper spray is in the class of "Less Lethal" weapons.  That means that it can cause harm to a person if things go wrong but, most of the time, it will only make a person, really, really "uncomfortable."  Hopefully, it will make them feel uncomfortable enough that they will go away before they can hurt you.

What I'm trying to say is that pepper spray is some really nasty stuff!  I really don't recommend buying it off eBay.
I think you should find a local dealer who you can talk to, face to face, and ask questions and get some in-person advice from.

Most gun shops in the U.S. also sell pepper spray and other "less lethal" defense items like stun guns and batons.  That's where I recommend you go.  Most gun shop owners will be very welcoming to women.  The good ones will be, anyway.  If you just go there and tell the owner what you are worried about and ask him what your options are he should be more than happy to tell you what you need to know.  He should give you the option for a firearms and a non-firearms solution.  If you walk into a store and you don't like the vibe you get, don't think twice about walking out.

My wife carries a firearm and she has a favorite gun dealer who is very courteous to women.  When she goes to the firing range, there are often a bunch of men there and, during the summer, it is common for them to walk around without shirts on.  The last time she went to the range, when she walked through the gate, the Range Officer called out, "Ladies present!"  All the men stopped what they were doing and put on their shirts.

If you go to a place and they don't behave like that or, at least, behave in a way that is acceptable to you, go somewhere else.  You can't learn about defense in a place that doesn't make you feel comfortable.

rowarrior The Littlest Thistle
Glasgow
Posts: 6,212

Pepper spray is illegal in the UK Lesley, and I'm sure you know that guns are, and stun guns and batons, all classed as offensive weapons.

Good luck with the dog owner, hope you can get the evidence you need against him to go to the police next time.

desertmountainbear desertmountainbear
Bloomsburg, PA
Posts: 5,399

How about baseball bats or a cane bear_happy

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Thanks, I will look into buying the pepper spray. I just pray  :pray: nothing similar ever happens again. Next time I see said guy, I am going to make sure he knows if I see that dog with no muzzle ever again, I will report him straight away. We have had dogs all our lives and never had anything like this happen before. I don't remember these breeds of dogs being around when I was young, if you look at local dog shelter pages, it's just page after page of Staffy or Staffy/cross dogs...........

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

It doesn't matter if you live in Iraq.  Every law abiding citizen has the absolute right to protect himself and his family by whatever means is reasonable under the circumstances.

Maybe you won't use a gun but there's nothing stopping you from grabbing a big stick and clobbering that darned dog over the head with it.

My greater point isn't about what you use for defense but that you have the RIGHT to defend yourself.

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Joanne & Katy, I just saw your last posts  bear_grin  I didn't know pepper spray was illegal in the UK, I kind of thought guns would be, but I would not trust myself with a gun, not where my lil dogs concerned  bear_wacko   It's quite difficult to know where we stand in the UK, as you hear of people defending themselves against people that have broken into their own home, and they end up getting charged with assault or worse, crazy days. My stuffing stick is a good one, hardwood, and stocky! It may come in very handy, easier to carry about than a bat, or gun for that matter  bear_happy

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

US bears ~ yes totally, In my minds eye I have done exactly that! many times in fact  bear_happy  I really appreciate you guys all taking the time to give your advice,   bear_flower

Densteds Densteds
Posts: 2,056
Website

In Australia a couple of weeks ago, a little 4 year old girl was mauled to death by a pitbull, it was a neighbours dog that escaped and came into the girl's parents home.

The people were apparently saying goodbye to someone and were out the front the dog came rushing at them and went into their house the mother tried to pull the dog from the little girl, it killed her, then turned on the mother and another child, both had to go to hospital...it was just awful, to think you're not even safe in your own home.

The dog was put down...pity the owner wasn't. They are considering banning these dangerous dogs, but you know what government is like, that could take forever. How would that poor woman ever recover from that, to have your child ripped apart by a dog..

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

It's not the dog.  It's the owner.

Did you know that, at the turn of the last century, Pit Bull Terriers were kept as family pets, specifically to GUARD CHILDREN?

It wasn't until the latter part of this century, in the 1970's, that Pit Bulls were bred and trained to be fighting dogs.

It is my belief that, if somebody's dog does harm to another person, it should be the OWNER who is held responsible just as they would be if they were driving a car and caused an accident.  If you were driving a car and had an accident that killed somebody you might be charged with vehicular manslaughter. 

I think the same thing should go for dogs.  The owner of that dog that killed the little girl should be charged with manslaughter.

SueAnn Past Time Bears
Double Oak, Texas
Posts: 20,829

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So sorry about your pup, Lesley, and glad she wasn't hurt even worse!  I definitely fault dog owners for their animal's bad behavior.  Last year I was walking my cairn terrier about a block and a half from our house.  We were passing a house (on the far side of the street) where a couple was out working in the yard.  Their dog was loose in the yard and came barreling across the street to jump on Bailey.  Bailey defended himself as best he could, but he was screaming and I was holding on to his leash, trying to get between the two dogs.  Yes, I know I shouldn't do that, but the dog was a pit bull mix and much bigger than Bailey so I wasn't going to let my dog get torn apart.  Meanwhile the couple just watched while their dog attacked us.  The pit bull finally pinned Bailey down and I went for him, but somehow came out of my tennis shoe and fell.  Only then did the man come get his dog under control.  A nice couple that had been walking some distance behind us ran up and started comforting Bailey and retrieved my shoe.  I was so mad all I could think of was to ask the man if his dog had gotten a rabies shot . . . fortunately, he had.  Bailey and I had very minor injuries, but I was appalled at the dog owners' lack of concern for our welfare and the fact that it took so long for them to respond.  And no, I didn't report anything to the authorities since all we got were scratches and bruises.  My feeling is that all pit bulls/pit bull mixes get a bad reputation for being mean when relatively few do the attacking.  Anyway, Lesley, I'm glad you did what you did and certainly believe you need to report the Staffordshire's owner if he doesn't have a muzzle on his dog next time you see him.

Us Bears Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,479

When you own a big dog, you really need to understand how to handle him.

My mother in law had a chihuahua.  When it misbehaved, all you needed to do was to stomp your foot on the floor and holler, "NO!!"  The dog would probably run and hide under the sofa for the next hour.  When I was a kid, my neighbor had a Saint Bernard.  That dog was a totally different story.  You could practically clock that dog in the head with a baseball bat and he would just stand there and look at you as if to say, "Did a fly just land on me?"  When that dog misbehaved, you had to be prepared to grab him by the collar and kick him in the behind or else he just wouldn't listen.

I don't advocate hitting a dog for no reason but my point is that a dog owner needs to know how to control his animal and to act accordingly when the situation calls for it.  If hollering at your dog is enough to make it behave, that's all well and good but if your dog needs to be grabbed by the collar and "manhandled" to make it behave then, so be it.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what kind of dog it is, you have to be the "big dog" in the house and you need to tell your dog what to do or what not to do.  If you don't, whether it is a chihuahua or a pit bull, that dog is going to control you instead of the other way around like it should be.

If you are out in the neighborhood, minding your own business, and somebody else's dog comes after you, it's probably going to be up to you to do the owner's job for him.  If the owner is in sight, you should tell him, "Control your dog!"  If he doesn't call his dog, it is your absolute right to do whatever is necessary to keep that dog from doing any harm.  If that means you have to "take out" that dog, so to speak, I wouldn't be happy to hear it but so be it.  You gave fair warning.

Before I got married, when I was still dating my wife (to be), she was outside in her yard when the neighbor's dog got loose and came after her.  Melanie is afraid of big dogs and the owner half-heartedly called it but did nothing to stop it.  Well, she ran to the front porch and called inside, "Mom! Go get my shotgun!"  The neighbor hastily ran over, scooped up the dog and took it home.

Long story short:  We never saw that dog outside again.   bear_whistle

Off The Paw Artist Bears by Lesley
East Neuk
Posts: 1,101

Denise that sounds absolutely horrific. I was told last night by a friend of a very similar story happened last week here in the UK involving a Mastiff attacking and killing a King Charles spaniel then starting on the children and their mum, although I believe it happened in a park, the thought of it happening in the 'privacy' of your own home is absolutely shocking.

Sue Ann, thats awful too, poor Bailey, those types of people should not be allowed a dog of any sort, especially these killing machines. After the attack I was constantly looking over my shoulder and doing 360 degree turns looking out for any attackees! scared for my little dogs life! My mental health and self confidence took a huge nose dive as well, I didn't cope with it at all well. I couldn't even work on making bears for months after the attack either, It was all just too much. My dog coped with it a million times better than me.

US bears, you and your wife might have to come over here and sort my neighbours out for me!  bear_grin

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