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Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)I'm going to cross-post this from the NFing forum, as it's an important reflection on our artist world and everyone doesn't always check the NFing if they don't work in that medium:
I came across this auction when I was surfing in eBay - something about the fact that results were guaranteed caught my eye.
Not stated in the auction/ad/website but the opinion of the person giving the link.
In theory, any shape could have an injection mold made from it and be reproduced ad infinitum ad nauseam.
This is Art???
Please tell me this is not a trend that will catch on!!!!
MerBear Originalsdefinitely not ART!!! that would be like calling 'paint by numbers' artwork.
Marion
Posts: 1,836Cute kit idea, smart business idea...to run with the idea that everyone could have their own little piece of a Toby winner. It reminds me of the pottery places that were/are so trendy. Where you go in and simply paint on the glaze. The pottery is already made, they do all of the firing, but the end result is still nice and something you'll display in your house. It's a craft type concept.
Not everyone can do high end arts. Some people are awesome crafters and kit workers, but the individual design and creation part isn't something they have in them or even care to do. And sometimes the kit or craft concept brings out the desire to try "the real thing". Most bear artists (not all, but most) started out with a kit or a pattern. That kit wasn't art, but the bear the artist is making now, 5 years later, is.
I've never felted, I know I'll have to start with some kind of kit and would like to soon. (any ideas of where to find good ones...I'd frustrated if the supplies weren't quality)
:hug:
~Chrissi
fribbles, ltd....definitely belongs in the Paint-By-Number category. Why make the bar lower? so that there's nothing to strive for, everyone's talent is exactly the same as everyone else's.
Reminds me too much of Ayn Rand. Sheesh, what is the world coming to?!!
Amelia
Tami Eveslage Original Teddy BearsI agree with Chrissi on this one. I don't really think it is aimed at artists, but rather crafters, folks who enjoy making things with their hands, but might be intimidated by the idea of starting with just a ball of fluff, lump of clay or a piece of mohair and their own pattern. I don't think it is art , but I think things like this have their place. (My son and I love those trendy pottery places!) I'm not sure it's lowering the bar either as it seems to me to be an apples to oranges comparison.
I have had people say upon hearing that I make bears, "OH, like the "Build a Bear Workshop"?"
I tell them if painting a landscape or portrait in oil paint is like coloring in a coloring book, then yes, what I do is like "Build a Bear" workshop. They just don't compare really.
I could see that someone might make one of these and represent it as their own and I guess that could be problematic.
Chrissi, check Bobbie's website for felting kits, that will teach the art of needle felting. They have detailed directions and everything is included. That's how I learned. I recommend "Teddy Boy"
Wild Thyme OriginalsReally, I think of it pretty much the same way that Chrissi does. I know I buy a TON of little "crafty kits" for my daughter to do.... you know, it's a plain denim purse, and you attach the handles yourself, cover it with the included rhinestones and beads, et voila! Now... my daughter thinks she's "made and designed" the purse herself because she put it together and decided where each little bead and bauble would go! I think that most grown ups kinda know better though! Really, I think all is well so long as that's where it ends. If the purchaser of the kit makes the item and keeps it for themselves and had a great time doing it, then all is well with the world! It's when people make things with a kit and then sell the item as something other than "a an item made using a kit designed by Artist X."
I think that's the same problem that the doll world has faced for serveral years with polymer clay push molds, and I think it's similar to some of the problems that our own artist bear world has faced with artist designed patterns. There's not a problem unless and until someone with dishonest intentions comes along and tries to sell the finished kit as "their own" design.
Kim Basta
Cleathero CreationsI am the same thinking more for beginners or crafters.
As long as they don't try and sell it then I don't see the harm. My girls use patterns for their toys and bears I see it as the same type of thing.
BruinwerksSome people want to make a piece of art totally created and envisioned by them and some people want to make something that they can talk about at parties. 
Its apples and oranges to me.
I agree that its a smart business move though...whatever you need to do to broaden the market you're after.
Bobbi...how's the knee?
Cheryl 
Flying Fur StudiosWow, cute idea I guess. Kinda wished i had thought of it, yet at the same time........I like my work to be ooaks and part of my imagination.
I don't see too much wrong with this, except for those who will start selling them as Ooaks.
As Kim B. says, this has been happening in the doll world for some time now, and it doesn't make those artists very happy.
Charlotte Des Roches DesignsI don't like it...takes the OOAK away...and I have taught beginners...I can't think of anyone who would want to do needle felting this way...definitely like paint by number...and IF someone wanted to use a kit like this that they pay 60 bucks for...how much could they sell the finished product for????.. Just my 2 cents...I may be way off ...but it's just not my cup of tea !!!
Hugs &
SanguineCreationsAs long as the kit isn't mis-sold after it's been made, then I don't think it's a problem.
Before I moved I hung out with two very good friends of mine. One loved making things, she was a professional seamstresss. She and I would throw ideas about and come up with things to make, we loved arts and crafts. While our other friend didn't make anything. She felt unable too, didn't think she was capable of anything craft like. We made her a kit (wall hanging heart, with detail) She loved it, hung it on her wall and it opened a whole world to her. She went on to make other items we taught her to make and loved feeling she'd created something from scratch. I can't see her ever making anything that isn't in kit form, but it gives her a wonderful feeling of being creative, which really isn't her fort'e. She's a clever woman, but more intellectual than hands on.
Kits have their place, it's when they are mis- represented, ie used dishonestly that the problem arises....but that's the case with most dishonesty.
ok going to crawl back under my sewing pile. :whistle:
Edited to add... Not everyone who uses kits, has any intention of selling what they make. I loved painting by numbers as a kid, but I wouldn't do it now, now I'd want to improve my drawing and painting skills.
'Bear' Bottoms Originalslol, I was thinking Paint-By-Numbers as well. Yeah, I wouldn't say art, but is Paint-By-Numbers truly art either? Now lets just hope someone doesn't run with this idea and we start finding 'Needlefelted' creations for sale that aren't even truly made by the 'artist'....
Kimberly W.
Matilda Huggington-beareI consider it a very clever money maker. It is definitely not ART as we know it but clever none the less. As has already been stated,its more of a paint by numbers. I have a friend who loves to be creative but is more of a kit person like Stitches friend.. I know that she would get untold pleasure out of a kit like this. Me? well, I would be worried my fingers would get way too many punctures. 
I also would rather spend my time creating something original than cookie cutter. With some good marketing it could become a multi mullion dollar business. It has big money, fad potential. Wish I had thought of it. It is something that would definitely appeal to the masses. Like all fads it does have a shelf life.
Wendy 
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Please tell me that this is not a trend.
I debated mentioning the paint-by-number concept, as well as Build-A-Bear. Nothing wrong with either; I've encouraged both, and if they're done by a child or someone new to the concept of painting or teddies, I can see instilling the love of the idea early and hopefully planting seeds of the future, when the person grows and matures into an artist that works from their own concpts, be they 10 or 100 at that maturing stage.
But to needle fiber into a foam shape is nothing like needling into wool into wool. There are few actual beginner's all-wool projects that don't have charm of their own, not matter how much improvement is needed in technique.
What I object to is the fact that this doesn't give that first experience of beginning with your very first basic mass of fiber and needling it into a shape. Applying a fiber surface to a sponge gives no sense of what happens when you needle to compress the fibers into themselves, taking on a unique serendiptious form and working it further until it pleases you.
In fact, it's the very opposite of one of the first principles we teach/learn in NFing - how to avoid embedding your project into the foam!
I'm very proud of the kit line I've created; my kits have been likened to mini-books in themselves. (TY, Tammi! Teddy Boy & the standing Polar are favorite 'kids' of mine!).
This being my third kit line, I've had lots of experience in seeing what it takes to answer questions as though the buyer was sitting next to you, before they even realize they have a question. I could tell you some horror stories about the 'quality' of the fiber and the 1/2 and 1 page instructions I've bought from others, to see how others are teaching this fine new Fiber Art.
But to assure buyers that they're buying the materials to create a masterpiece is just wrong. And I choked on the price...... For $60 one could buy several dozen needles and pounds and pounds of different types of fibers. One could work for a year on the amount of materials $60 will buy, learning a lot about NFing and different fiber-giving animals during that time.
If I ever get these surgeries (2nd knee's fine Cheryl, THX!) behind me, my #1 priority in 07 (besides getting that consarned website operational) will be to finally put together the extensive book I'm writing on all aspects of NFing. Ppl should become informed about how to buy the supplies, how the different sheep breeds' wool will act, where & how to find good suppliers, etc, etc... and how to change/fix things when "It's just not working out like I planned."
There were far too many ppl that jumped on the current bandwagon in the past few years as a supplier, w/o knowing the first thing about NFing, having had no experience of the own to back up the supplies they were selling.
I lost count of the number of ppl who've said - "What a simple explanation & solution!" Too many of them were told by their instructors "That just happens sometimes." The Tennis Ball Syndrome is a prime example - I named this after my first experience with it and worked backwards to a cause and then a solution. The serendipitious nature of this medium is that it doesn't always happen, even when you know what caused it. That marks a teacher from an opportunist.
Don't let my diatribe stop anyone from trying this method!! Heavens! There are more ways to skin a cat... It is unique marketing, but does NFing a great disservice. But the high price AND the fact that newbies don't know in advance that they won't be taught how to create ("Begin as you mean to finish" comes to mind here...) from just wool & a needle bothers me no end.
Needle Felting is some wool, a needle and your imgaination!
It's also changeable, fixable and there's nothing wasted.
What a perfect area of skill waiting to be born, for about the least amount of $$ I've ever spent.
Stepping down from my dusty soapbox, in this season of Good Will to all men....
Strange Bearshhhmmm............doesn't do it for me....I agree great for kids but I can't see it being cute and cuddly and having the tactile feel of a "real" teddy bear. People will buy it and maybe get hooked on the hobby and want tot take if further which maybe good for us.....or be so disappointed in the project they give it all away. I don't think it will affect sales of bears to collectors in any way and I can't see anyone making more than one or two of these kits.......too boring.
A person with real craft talent would never get hooked on these and those who are only a bit interested in craft wouldn't stick at it any longer than one or two kits.
It's a clever concept but one they won't get rich from. Anyone who is into needle-felting will very quickly see this for what it is..a bit of a gimmick and quickly move on.
I don't think anyone would seriously consider selling these after they have made them as the kits are quite expensive..and if they do, well, if they can get anything near what they paid for them then it would be a miracle.
I don't think this is even a serious starting point for the budding needle-felter...but it is something to do on a rainy afternoon...or maybe it might lead someone to buy other, more challenging kits. I don't think this would be as easy as it looks though and would probably be a waste of money in the long run. There must have been a lot of set up costs involved in putting this together..I hope they get their money back..if it was me I'd be talking to craft stores about stocking it.
MerBear OriginalsPlease tell me that this is not a trend.....
I would think this is part of a trend, along with paint-by-numbers, build-a-bear and other such items. People want instant gratification without taking the time to property learn a craft or art form. But on the other hand - I feel it will make the actual artists work that much more valuable because people will hopefully realize the extent of work that went into an original item....hopefully.
Marion
Well, I guess the sad thing is ....she actually won the Toby Award for one of her bears with a foam base, didn't she?........ Hopefully those judges knew what they were judging there. It must have rankled with the other contestants if they understood what they were seeing when they looked at it. I am thinking that if this is how some bear makers will compete in future, there really should be separate categories............. needle felted critters "with" and also "without" a foam or other type of core. It certainly does make a difference how the finisehd product looks and behaves.
Posts: 1,836It's a shame the artist can't advise us to her product and her concepts. I think there's a lot of assuming going on with the artists work and her intentions. It might not be totally fair to on a forum designed to inspire and lift up our own kind, just my opinion here.
Personally I still think it's smart on her part to expand her market and tap into what was only called last week in an article about MerryThought "declining interest in collecting bears".
I've gone to the site again and no where does it state that she used anything other than traditional methods to create her award winning OOAK bears. She looks to be a traditional felter with years of experience trying a new twist in a crafting and hobbier arena. One of a Kind seems to be used in reference to the kit itself a few times. "OOAK Kit"...if her kits are the first of their kind, then for marketing and smart business it's technically a "ooak kit".
For me this still falls into the category of crafting and designed for the market that appreciates Donna Dewberry painting techniques, ScrapBooking ready mades, Gallery Glass "leading kits", and all that fun stuff you can readily find on Home shopping networks an in "craft" stores. If this artist is able to grab the eye of a crafter who in turn becomes a collector..have at it..is my thinking. Donna Dewberry isn't taking money from high end gallery sales and I don't see this felting kit as much of an artistic threat. If anything it might tap into new collectors we're always talking about finding and enchanting.
:hug:
~Chrissi
:crackup: :crackup: A beginer/ childs kit surely :crackup:
Cleathero CreationsWell I don't know a kit is a kit beginner or not.
I will state here (I stated it in the needlefelters area too) that aside from bears I have only been CRAFTING for the past year. I used a lot of kits to learn the basics and then if it interested me I discovered more. Quite often thekit does it totally differently to alot of other people. If it interested me enough I'd to hunt out more information and then I learnt there were many different ways of doing it.
SO altho this may not be our kinda thing I do think there could be positives to it as it gets people interested in something they may never have thought to attempt. They do it on the foam like it and then realise there is a huge wide world of needlefelting out there.
Tami Eveslage Original Teddy BearsVeronica wrote
she actually won the Toby Award for one of her bears with a foam base, didn't she?........ Hopefully those judges knew what they were judging there. It must have rankled with the other contestants if they understood what they were seeing when they looked at it.
Chrissi wrote
I've gone to the site again and no where does it state that she used anything other than traditional methods to create her award winning OOAK bears.
I met Rose, the artist, spoke with her and saw her Toby winner in person at the Toby Awards show in 2005. It is indeed felted very firmly in the traditional style, all the way through, as were all of the pieces she was showing. And they were indeed art. The bear stood about 10 inches tall and was therefore an enormous amount of time and work. It was priced accordingly. At that time, she told me that she was working on something unique that could allow a needle felted piece to be reproduced thus creating a limited edition and a piece which would be more affordable to the "average" collector. (Most of us don't have too many $1100 bears in our collection!) Perhaps this kit idea came as an off shoot of that. I really don't think it will hurt the artist bear industry any more than the "Build a Bear Workshop". Again, apples and oranges 
Jellybelly BearsI think its a good idea..ducking for cover! lol. The fact is that there is nothing to begin with when felting...this is a way to pratice first..like you would buy a bear kit to begin with instead of drawing your own pattern straight off...just my thoughts. I'd let my nephew try this...gives them a finished result quicker and also somthing to hold onto while felting.
Posts: 8,574So what Bobbie does, for instance,IS art and will not be so easily reproduced.
I agree those mediums are fun for the kiddiekins, girls scout troops whatever, but artists must remember they are artists, and continue developing and refining and innovating.
If we want to concider ourselves artists, and most of us do, even those of us who are a little dillywonky, we can't be afraid.
We must be brave enough to continue trying to put out a great product.
Hi Tammi...don't blame poor Marion for my post...lol .....
However, since I wrote it...I have also written the artist and she answered me right away...... and here is her letter.
.....................Hi Veronica,
No, none of my originals have foam centers! All my original ideas are done in the traditional method of needle felting with a wool core and layering the colors on top.
I created the foam method to simplifiy it for all craft enthusiasts to be able to enjoy the entire process of learning the craft without becoming discuraged. Many times often we have to train our eyes, hands and minds. Training all three at the same time is difficult for most. So, I designed the bear for everyone ahead of time, this way you can focus on training the eyes and hands first. Then when your comfortable with having learned the basics you can become the designer knowing what to expect from the wool as you get to that step.
I hope to be abel to bring the ease of the craft with the enjoyment of learning together and offer the crafts person an original of mine.
I hope you try it, I know the experience has been a truly fun one for everyone that has tried it. But I warn you... it is very addictive!!!!!
Rosie Morse
........so, now we know the whole story........ thanks Rose for the clarification.........
